Mark Butler MP: TRANSCRIPT OF INTERVIEW SKY PM AGENDA

Date:  07 November 2013

DAVID SPEERS: Mark Butler, thank you for your time. What difference do you think it does make, whether or not a minister attends these annual climate talks?

MARK BUTLER:  Well, obviously it doesn't always need to be a minister. From time to time a minister's parliamentary secretary has attended these meetings. But they have always been attended by someone with executive responsibility, a political executive. Under the Howard Government, there was always a minister leading these talks and under our government, either minister Combet or Wong led the talks on behalf of Australia or from time to time parliamentary secretary Dreyfus attended. So not only is it unusual in ordinary circumstances for there not to be political leadership at these talks, it is quite unprecedented.

SPEERS:  But my question is what difference does it make whether it is a member of the executive or, indeed, a diplomat in this case?

BUTLER:  Because at the end of the day, these are very critical meetings and this is not an ordinary meeting, the one at Warsaw. This is a meeting that kicks off a period leading into 2015 that is utterly critical to global climate change negotiations for the post 2020 period, an utterly critical starting point. Australia is a very important part of these negotiations. We are and have been for some years the chair of something called the umbrella group that brings together some critically important nations in terms of carbon pollution and the need to make progress for the post 2020 period. So it is a strong political statement not to send someone in a political leadership position to these talks. And the political statement that's being made is all negative.

SPEERS:  So what do you think other countries will read into this?

BUTLER:  Well, I think other countries are going to read into it, at best, confusion and, at worst, that the Abbott government is walking away from global action on climate change. We have only read in the last 24 hours or so that the usual briefings that take place for the different environmental groups that go to these talks and business groups that also go to these talks have been cancelled by the government. So the Australian representatives from the non- government sector, whether they are environmentalists or business types, are going to go with no capacity to talk to their counterparts overseas about what the new government's position is going to be. This is all on the back of, you know, global articles talking about Greg Hunt looking up Wikipedia research on extreme weather events, on the back of global coverage of Tony Abbott's very negative comments on climate change and John Howard's speech only in the last 24 hours, again, comparing climate change science to religious zealotry.

SPEERS:  It has been the case with these UN talks on a number of occasions where they have been an absolute disappointing in terms of what they have achieved, Copenhagen being the best example of that. If it were you going as minister, what would you be hoping to achieve on Australia's behalf at these talk?

BUTLER:  It is important that expectations be realistic about any of these meetings. Warsaw is not going to achieve a final agreement but it is, as I said, an important starting point for a process that will take place over the next 18-24 months to reach an agreement in Paris, in late 2015, to cover the post 2020 period.

SPEERS: But what about this year? What about this year? What actually has to be done that requires some level of executive appearance there?

BUTLER: Well, particularly as there has been a new government elected, it is important that the new political leadership go to Warsaw and talk with their counter parts and affirm quite what the new government's position is on those global talks, because this is going to be a very difficult set of negotiations. I've heard Greg Hunt say well, we can just come to this in the second half of 2015. You can't. If you take that attitude, then the talks in Paris in late 2015 will fail. This needs a concerted effort over two years to get an agreement that brings in nations like China, the US, India, Europe obviously and many others. And this is a very bad start. Now, what we also don't know is the degree to which this is all part of the territorial dispute between Greg Hunt and Julie Bishop. Usually it will be an Environment Minister going to this but we hear that Julie Bishop and the Department of Foreign Affairs has exerted authority and pushed the environment portfolio out of this global process. So again, we are trying to read tea leaves on this.

SPEERS:  Can I turn to the carbon tax. Parliament resumes next week and first order of business will be the legislation to repeal it. There is, however, some doubt over whether if it is repealed prices, electricity prices, will fall by the average 9 per cent that the government has promised. What do you believe has been the price impact of the carbon tax and therefore would be the impact if it is removed?

BUTLER:  Well, I think it differed from state to state but as my predecessor Greg Combet clearly spelt out, the impact was lower than the impact that we had indicated would probably be the case and the impact was more than covered by the household assistance paid to pensioners, those on fixed incomes and also low to middle income families and other households. So the sort of hysteria that Tony Abbott spent three years whipping up, that there were 50-60 per cent price rises consequent upon the carbon tax are basically coming home to roost. He has built a campaign based on a fraud. Based on hysteria. It is not only power prices now that are in doubt of coming down, it is groceries that Tony Abbott focused on so much during this historical campaign. It is other consumer goods. Big business, small business, the grocery sector and electricity sector all say there actually hasn't been much of a price impact, so repealing the carbon tax is not going to result in people having more money in their pockets. We have said all along direct action would cost households more and it would be less effective in tackling climate change.

SPEERS:  Will this be the political approach for Labor beyond next year and beyond the possible repeal of the carbon tax to highlight that price promise against the price reality?

BUTLER: Well, the trouble is for Tony Abbott that he has never made an actual promise. He has whipped up so much hysteria, used so many half-baked truths and mistruths frankly in his campaign but he has never actually given a rock solid guarantee to Australian households and said "Your power prices will drop by this amount, I guarantee it, you can hold me to it electorally". He has never said in all the campaigns about how much a lamb roast would cost, in spite of the fact it didn't increase, he has never said "I give you a rock solid guarantee that your groceries will go down by this amount and you can hold me to it". It is time now he is Prime Minister that he did that, that he does it in the parliament next week and then we will see whether he can be held to it.

SPEERS: We will have to leave it there. Thanks for joining us.

BUTLER: Thanks David.

ENDS